Ethanol Issue!
- Thread starter KennyP
- Start date
Yes Rich, I definitely agree! I've personally had so much issue from alcohol in fuel that I am sick of it. Once you've removed jelly from a fuel bowl you're kinda over it. Yes, it helps if using a fuel additive, but it's SO much easier for me to buy 100% gasoline than fool with it anymore.
I can't help but wonder what happened to the hydrogen program. On the surface anyway it seemed like a really good idea. I don't buy the fire hazard as being the reason. There's millions of tons of highly explosive gasses being transported on our highways every month.
This is true but order a semi load of livestock feed and it comes right out of the same bin as the corn going to ethanol. And the only corn I've seen growing anywhere is yellow unless it's the odd colored sweet corn sold at farmers markets. Back when Kellogs used to picture corn on their boxes it was yellow and having just used some corn meal that was yellow I'm starting to think there must be quite a bit of yellow corn used in human food.
And then there is corn sweeteners that are in every thing. Note that the primary ingredient is Yellow #2 dent corn.
Raw Materials
There are several thousand varieties of corn, but the variety known as yellow #2 dent corn is the primary source of corn syrup. It is a common variety grown in the Midwestern portion of the United States and elsewhere in the world. It belongs to a family of corn that derive their name from the small dent in the end of every kernel.
The above taken from the following source.
Read more: How corn syrup is made - material, used, processing, parts, composition, steps, product
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Interesting discussion here!!!
I do some work on the chemical process side of ethanol plants, if it wasn't for the corn oil extraction $, it would be either flat or a money loser. Corn oil going to bio-diesel has been a new revenue stream as ethanol is flatlined. Corn oil has saved the ethanol industry and in many cases they make more $ on corn oil than the ethanol, especially with fuel prices being so low in $/barrel oil. Corn oil IS the money maker now and it all goes to fuel as bio-diesel.
Speaking of corn oil extraction, it was mentioned that the corn after the ethanol process still goes to animal feed. That is true but with some interesting points. The end product, dry distillers grain has all the carbohydrates removed (that went to ethanol), the fat (that went to bio diesel) and is left with proteins (not all though) and fiber. Many times, farmers don't want it as there is not enough fat. Corn oil extraction has taken the wind out of dry distillers grain (DDG). And right now, there is a huge problem going around with the mycotoxins in DDG. Seems there is a fungal problem and the mycotoxins get concentrated in DDG, so there is only so much DDG a farmer can feed his stock, otherwise they get sick. Mycotoxins have really depressed $/ton of DDG lately, I do not see this changing in the future with our farming practices.
Could ethanol survive without strong lobbying and subsidy? No. Would the public (other than the midwest who is heavily invested in it) be happy without the commercials and lobbying such as that E15 Chev commercial "I want to grow my fuel rather than buy it from middle east"? It sounds so warm and fuzzy...growing fuel instead of crude oil from Saudi. But, that story is an old one and no longer true.
But, has it been a boon to the midwest and other corn producing areas? Yes. Good jobs, great technology and excellent plants have been built, a good price for corn and a steady customer for their corn.
Should all that land be used for this? Good question...I say not. Corn is a intense synthetic fertilizer user, needs lots of water and seems a dumb thing to "grow" for fuel. What is happening to the Ogallala aquifer in midwest is a prime example of whats to come in another decade...butthe show keeps going on.
Does ethanol in gas hurt older engines before the ethanol mandate occurred? Yes! That is without question. Anyone who knows about what we call MOC, materials of construction for chemical lines know that ethanol has certain properties that certain rubbers do not like. Ethanol is hygroscopic, it absorbs water and either you really want that to happen, or really do not.
And lastly, some people have good luck. some bad. You guys know that storage containers are very important for ethanol gas. Also, depending on where you live and the additive package included at your particular gas station has a HUGE impact. Some of us are lucky, some are not.
- Pretty well all corn for human and animal is yellow corn. It is just the grading that differs, (moisture, mycotoxin level, starch, fat, protein and overall storage condition). ALL field corn is yellow dent, just gets graded differently.
- Some yellow dent if the quality is good enough goes to human, but it is a small percentage
- cereals
- corn meal/flours that gets put in many different products
- corn oil for human consumption (Mazola)
- sugar syrup for direct consumption or for bulk in other foods (high fructose etc) You see the tankers going to soft drinks to cookies/baking plants...the list is long.
- Lots of the corn is a grade as animal feed that gets processed into feed in many forms
- Lots gets ethanol grade due to its quality in starch and fat
I do some work on the chemical process side of ethanol plants, if it wasn't for the corn oil extraction $, it would be either flat or a money loser. Corn oil going to bio-diesel has been a new revenue stream as ethanol is flatlined. Corn oil has saved the ethanol industry and in many cases they make more $ on corn oil than the ethanol, especially with fuel prices being so low in $/barrel oil. Corn oil IS the money maker now and it all goes to fuel as bio-diesel.
Speaking of corn oil extraction, it was mentioned that the corn after the ethanol process still goes to animal feed. That is true but with some interesting points. The end product, dry distillers grain has all the carbohydrates removed (that went to ethanol), the fat (that went to bio diesel) and is left with proteins (not all though) and fiber. Many times, farmers don't want it as there is not enough fat. Corn oil extraction has taken the wind out of dry distillers grain (DDG). And right now, there is a huge problem going around with the mycotoxins in DDG. Seems there is a fungal problem and the mycotoxins get concentrated in DDG, so there is only so much DDG a farmer can feed his stock, otherwise they get sick. Mycotoxins have really depressed $/ton of DDG lately, I do not see this changing in the future with our farming practices.
Could ethanol survive without strong lobbying and subsidy? No. Would the public (other than the midwest who is heavily invested in it) be happy without the commercials and lobbying such as that E15 Chev commercial "I want to grow my fuel rather than buy it from middle east"? It sounds so warm and fuzzy...growing fuel instead of crude oil from Saudi. But, that story is an old one and no longer true.
But, has it been a boon to the midwest and other corn producing areas? Yes. Good jobs, great technology and excellent plants have been built, a good price for corn and a steady customer for their corn.
Should all that land be used for this? Good question...I say not. Corn is a intense synthetic fertilizer user, needs lots of water and seems a dumb thing to "grow" for fuel. What is happening to the Ogallala aquifer in midwest is a prime example of whats to come in another decade...butthe show keeps going on.
Does ethanol in gas hurt older engines before the ethanol mandate occurred? Yes! That is without question. Anyone who knows about what we call MOC, materials of construction for chemical lines know that ethanol has certain properties that certain rubbers do not like. Ethanol is hygroscopic, it absorbs water and either you really want that to happen, or really do not.
And lastly, some people have good luck. some bad. You guys know that storage containers are very important for ethanol gas. Also, depending on where you live and the additive package included at your particular gas station has a HUGE impact. Some of us are lucky, some are not.
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There are a few, sugarcane being the best and most economical. Sugarcane blows corn away as far as energy you put in to grow/process compared what you get out...compared to corn which sucks. South American countries grow alot of sugarcane where even the waste from sugar for human consumption can be used for ethanol production (called bagasse). Corn is pretty well a poor choice...but again, the politicians and farming conglomerates have alot of lobby $ at work here and it has paid off. Unlike sugar cane, only a small part of the corn (the kernels) is usable, the rest of the plant is not in the process...opposite for sugar beets etc. Hence on a ecological scale, corn for ethanol is poor, takes a lot of water, gobbles the phosphorus like a drunken sailor and takes a lot of room to grow (water issue).
We could do so much better, but alas the tables are stacked.
Many years ago I did some work at an ethanol pilot plant using first sugar beets, then Jerusalem artichokes. Both are excellent but required a large investment from farmers for planting, harvesting and storage. Corn won the day on that one as the equipment infrastructure was already there. Back 50 years ago, there was alot of sugar beets farmed, but not any longer and farmers are not going to sell their corn heads for beet pickers.
Did a little work out west in a cellulosic conversion, but it is years away. Pulp and paper mills (now my main source of consulting work I do) are also looking into cellulose from wood or other fibre they can get, cellulose being just a very large carbohydrate that contains many sugar molecules bonded together, but the enzyme technology needs to catch up. The are also looking at ways to hydro-crack cellulose in lieu/in conjunction with enzymes, but again, this is in pilot stage. Problem as I see it (like big oil), is the big lobbies and conglomerates have all the research money directed in ways to improve their process, getting start-up money for a new cellulosic conversion from grasses, corn or wheat stubble, wood is just not available in large enough quantities.
We are in a game where the rules are decided in back rooms and golf courses. And, we tend to believe many of the slick spins we are told. Like the the Matrix movie series, we still are the coppertops of the world...it is our money that powers the machine and the machine is not our friend.
We could do so much better, but alas the tables are stacked.
Many years ago I did some work at an ethanol pilot plant using first sugar beets, then Jerusalem artichokes. Both are excellent but required a large investment from farmers for planting, harvesting and storage. Corn won the day on that one as the equipment infrastructure was already there. Back 50 years ago, there was alot of sugar beets farmed, but not any longer and farmers are not going to sell their corn heads for beet pickers.
Did a little work out west in a cellulosic conversion, but it is years away. Pulp and paper mills (now my main source of consulting work I do) are also looking into cellulose from wood or other fibre they can get, cellulose being just a very large carbohydrate that contains many sugar molecules bonded together, but the enzyme technology needs to catch up. The are also looking at ways to hydro-crack cellulose in lieu/in conjunction with enzymes, but again, this is in pilot stage. Problem as I see it (like big oil), is the big lobbies and conglomerates have all the research money directed in ways to improve their process, getting start-up money for a new cellulosic conversion from grasses, corn or wheat stubble, wood is just not available in large enough quantities.
We are in a game where the rules are decided in back rooms and golf courses. And, we tend to believe many of the slick spins we are told. Like the the Matrix movie series, we still are the coppertops of the world...it is our money that powers the machine and the machine is not our friend.
Fascinating!
I always thought it would be great if they could use Kudzu.
Yeah boy, now that would be something!
Great write up Shotgun. One thing you did not touch on though is the storage requirement for corn that is to be used for food items v livestock feed or other uses. That is a BIG and expensive difference. Lot of strict requirements in place for food producing corn verses other uses.
The one thing I am still looking for the solid PROOF that all these problems people come up with are actually CAUSED by Ethanol. In old engines, YES Aboslutely. But when the carbs and fuel line are brought up to date - don't think so. Thousand variables that are never mentioned, just Eathaol is bad. I still stand by it and probably always will, and I have no $$ interest in it any way shape or form.
The one thing I am still looking for the solid PROOF that all these problems people come up with are actually CAUSED by Ethanol. In old engines, YES Aboslutely. But when the carbs and fuel line are brought up to date - don't think so. Thousand variables that are never mentioned, just Eathaol is bad. I still stand by it and probably always will, and I have no $$ interest in it any way shape or form.
No "ego" involved and nothing personal either.
Nice info Shotgun. A lot of experiences dealing with ethanol have been explained here, that is practical application that works for most of us.
With that said, I have yet to see solid PROOF that ethanol fuels in no way cause damage to gas powered equipment. Besides Shotgun's educational write-ups, it has been people sharing their good or bad experiences. I will stick to using non-e fuel with the knowledge I gained from solving problems with my own equipment. Like I said earlier, I am damm glad that non-e is available in my area!
DAC
With that said, I have yet to see solid PROOF that ethanol fuels in no way cause damage to gas powered equipment. Besides Shotgun's educational write-ups, it has been people sharing their good or bad experiences. I will stick to using non-e fuel with the knowledge I gained from solving problems with my own equipment. Like I said earlier, I am damm glad that non-e is available in my area!
DAC
Shotgun it was really nice hearing from you. I worked with industrial refrigeration systems, Anhydrous Ammonia and Freon, for many years. I tend to think in terms of BTU's. When I drive by our local Ethanol plant and see the steam and wasted heat rising into the sky it makes me sick. From October until April on a calm day you can see the vapor clouds rising into the air from 20 miles away and we don't live on flat ground. What a waist. I would think they could put a reclaimer on those stacks and sell the Heat back to the city in the winter. That would reduce the subsidies needed from the tax payers.
Down here they collect the methane off the landfills and generate power on site with it.
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And you see the same thing from every house that has petroleum product as a heat source. Happens to kettle of water on the stove too. Same thing. Warm air meats cold air.
Come on down and I'll let you take your pick of any one of 20 gas engines that have had nothing but Ethanol used in them since the day I got them. Every one will start and run.
The difference is I'm using it to stay warm not create another energy source. I could care less about the steam. Really. It's the wasted energy it takes to create it at a loss.
It takes more energy to make ethanol then the ethanol can produce. That's what irks me. And the ethanol supporters don't want to admit it. That irks me even more. Why not just be truthful about it. If someone came up to you and said " Invest with me and I'll guarantee you a 30% loss" would you do it? I don't think this country should be doing it either.
70 Percent More Energy Required to Make Ethanol than Actually is in Ethanol: Cornell
March 6, 2009
Cornell Chronicle
by Roger Segelken
Farm Issues,
Environment & Climate,
Organic Transitions
CU scientist terms corn-based ethanol 'subsidized food burning'
Neither increases in government subsidies to corn-based ethanol fuel nor hikes in the price of petroleum can overcome what one Cornell agricultural scientist calls a fundamental input-yield problem: It takes more energy to make ethanol from grain than the combustion of ethanol produces.
At a time when ethanol-gasoline mixtures (gasohol) are touted as the American answer to fossil fuel shortages by corn producers, food processors and some lawmakers, Cornell's David Pimentel takes a longer range view.
"Abusing our precious croplands to grow corn for an energy-inefficient process that yields low-grade automobile fuel amounts to unsustainable, subsidized food burning," said the Cornell professor in the College of Agriculture and Life Sciences. Pimentel, who chaired a U.S. Department of Energy panel that investigated the energetics, economics and environmental aspects of ethanol production several years ago, subsequently conducted a detailed analysis of the corn-to-car fuel process. His findings will be published next month in the forthcoming Encyclopedia of Physical Sciences and Technology.
Among his findings:
* An acre of U.S. corn yields about 7,110 pounds of corn for processing into 328 gallons of ethanol. But planting, growing and harvesting that much corn requires about 140 gallons of fossil fuels and costs $347 per acre, according to Pimentel's analysis. Thus, even before corn is converted to ethanol, the feedstock costs $1.05 per gallon of ethanol.
* The energy economics get worse at the processing plants, where the grain is crushed and fermented. As many as three distillation steps are needed to separate the 8 percent ethanol from the 92 percent water. Additional treatment and energy are required to produce the 99.8 percent pure ethanol for mixing with gasoline.
* Adding up the energy costs of corn production and its conversion to ethanol, 131,000 Btu are needed to make 1 gallon of ethanol. One gallon of ethanol has an energy value of only 77,000 Btu. "Put another way," Pimentel said, "about 70 percent more energy is required to produce ethanol than the energy that actually is in ethanol. Every time you make 1 gallon of ethanol, there is a net energy loss of 54,000 Btu."
* Ethanol from corn costs about $1.74 per gallon to produce, compared with about 95 cents to produce a gallon of gasoline. "That helps explain why fossil fuels -- not ethanol -- are used to produce ethanol," Pimentel said. "The growers and processors can't afford to burn ethanol to make ethanol. U.S. drivers couldn't afford it either, if it weren't for government subsidies to artificially lower the price."
* Most economic analyses of corn-to-ethanol production overlook the costs of environmental damages, which Pimentel says should add another 23 cents per gallon. "Corn production in the U.S. erodes soil about 12 times faster than the soil can be reformed, and irrigating corn mines groundwater 25 percent faster than the natural recharge rate of ground water. The environmental system in which corn is being produced is being rapidly degraded. Corn should not be considered a renewable resource for ethanol energy production, especially when human food is being converted into ethanol," Pimentel said.
* The approximately $1 billion a year in current federal and state subsidies (mainly to large corporations) for ethanol production are not the only costs to consumers, the Cornell scientist observes. Subsidized corn results in higher prices for meat, milk and eggs because about 70 percent of corn grain is fed to livestock and poultry in the United States. Increasing ethanol production would further inflate corn prices, Pimentel said, noting: "In addition to paying tax dollars for ethanol subsidies, consumers would be paying significantly higher food prices in the marketplace."
Nickels and dimes aside, some drivers still would rather see their cars fueled by farms in the Midwest than by oil wells in the Middle East, Pimentel acknowledges, so he calculated the amount of corn needed to power an automobile:
* The average U.S. automobile, traveling 10,000 miles a year on pure ethanol (not a gasoline-ethanol mix), would need about 852 gallons of the corn-based fuel. This would take 11 acres to grow, based on net ethanol production. This is the same amount of cropland required to feed seven Americans.
* If all the automobiles in the United States were fueled with 100 percent ethanol, a total of about 97 percent of U.S. land area would be needed to grow the corn feedstock. Corn would cover nearly the total land area of the United States.
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They have been lobbying for it for years.
The entire energy market in the US from renewable to fossil fuels is nothing but lies and misinformation, and MONEY LINING SOMEONES POCKET. I've spent the better part of 16 years so far in the energy field (as a dumb mechanic). I just hope they fight about it for another 30 years so I can retire. Doubt that happens.
I didn't read a lot here about what you guys posted, but I always was under the impression its widely known that ethanol is basically worthless but the government hands out money to keeps farmers heads above water.
The entire energy market in the US from renewable to fossil fuels is nothing but lies and misinformation, and MONEY LINING SOMEONES POCKET. I've spent the better part of 16 years so far in the energy field (as a dumb mechanic). I just hope they fight about it for another 30 years so I can retire. Doubt that happens.
I didn't read a lot here about what you guys posted, but I always was under the impression its widely known that ethanol is basically worthless but the government hands out money to keeps farmers heads above water.